[BeccaSikes]

I am very new at reading radiographs, but I see the sinking Patty is referencing. This would be founder, not laminitis, I believe. Were x-rays taken after he foundered last year? P3 has a slightly higher than normal PA(I think!!) But I would be most worried about the sinking. Some borium or wire to mark the hoof wall would have been nice.
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I believe I still have the x-rays from the last time he foundered. I'll have to look when I get home

 

[BeccaSikes]

You said the right front is "sinking" and the vet said it was "negative."
Are they the same thing???

 

[BeccaSikes]

What do you mean by "P3 has a slightly higher than normal PA"?

 

[Kayella]

Negative usually refers to the palmer angle, or what the angle P3 is to ground level. Parallel would be 0 degrees. Negative would mean the coffin bone is tipped upwards. Obviously, his are not. Sinking refers to P3 and P2. His pastern bone and coffin bone have sunk down lower into the hoof capsule. Laminitis usually refers to inflammation of the laminae in the hoof. Founder means actual rotation(high or low PA) or sinking.

ETA: The PA is USUALLY around 1-5 degrees, though it depends on each horse and their comfort. Some will have a higher PA, some will have a lower PA. His looks higher than normal, so greater than 5. But that's just to me, I could be totally completely wrong and his PA could be normal. I have just barely started learning how to read rads so take what I say with a grain of salt. :P

 

[BeccaSikes]

Kayella here are the xrays from last year when he foundered. They took the xrays after they put putty in for support and wrapped them.

 

[Patty Stiller]

I am very new at reading radiographs, but I see the sinking Patty is referencing. This would be founder, not laminitis, I believe.

Laminitis is the CAUSE, founder is the result of laminitis.
There are two kinds of founder, either bone rotation, or bone sinking . Some do both.
The Palmer Angle of the bone (angle of the bottom edge of the bone to the level ground) is not as important as the angle of the bone compared to the angle of the pastern bones, and the hoofwall. Some perfectly normal hooves may have an PA of 6 degrees, and club feet even more but it does not mean they are foundered if they match the pastern angles and the bone is not sunk. . The sinking is significant though because it is harder to fix. .

 

[Patty Stiller]

The vet said at the time she couldn't do measurements, but would do it when she got back to the clinic. I'm going to ask her about that whenever she returns my call.

hard to measure accurately when there are no friggin' wire markers on the foot. it's a pet peeve of mine from working with vets who understand the importance of using markers.

 

[Regula]

I am by no means an expert, but here's my personal experience.
My horse Leo foundered last April with about 2-3 degrees of rotation. He had last been trimmed 8.5 weeks before, and was put on Bute immediately. The vet suggested to wait 5-7 days till the acute inflammation is gone and then trim, mainly because it was painful for the horse to stand on one foot. So we did that, lameness cleared up quite well on 2g of Bute a day.
The farrier came out a week after the initial attack, and was trimmed quite aggressively (cut back and bevel toe, shorten heels). This caused us MASSIVE problems to the point where the horse could hardly walk. Stupid me, I was working and had the farrier trim him while I was not there (but had discussed it with him on the phone, the BO was present and I left written instructions). I think it was probably a combination of the trim being overdue (9.5 weeks since last trim), and the trim being very aggressive.

We re-x-rayed, cause the vet was suspecting that he might have rotated some more. There was no indication of additional rotation, and the angles actually looked better after trim compared to before. So despite the fact that the farrier actually did correct the angles, he was aggressive to the point where my horse was in agony for weeks.
It turned out that this was mainly due to the thin sole in the toe area (which now carried more weight, as the toe was cut back and bevelled) and sole bruising.

This was followed by months in SoftRide boots, sole bruising, abscesses, and more gradual trimming by a new farrier. We also tried one cycle of shoes at some point, but it didn't really improve anything, so we left him barefoot.
Now Leo has almost grown out his new hoof wall completely and is at least pasture sound (haven't tried putting him back to work yet, cause I'm pregnant).

I know that it is usually recommended to be aggressive with trimming a laminitic horse, but in our case a more gradual approach probably would have saved Leo a lot of pain.

 

[Patty Stiller]

More explanations about reading radiographs :

 

[BeccaSikes]

so how bad is the damage?

 

[Patty Stiller]

I know that it is usually recommended to be aggressive with trimming a laminitic horse,

NO. IT ISNT usually recommended. except by inexperienced practitioners. IN FACT we have to be EXTREMELY careful in trimming a laminitic horse because there is abnormal factors at work including increased flexor muscle tension pulling on the bone. aggressively trimming heels on a laminitic horse ususally results in more bone rotation. more pain and sometimes killing the horse.

but in our case a more gradual approach probably would have saved Leo a lot of pain.

Yep. And the VET should have recognized the importance of NOT aggressively lowering the heels because that increases flexor muscle and tendon tension , and the need to leave extra protection over the end of the bone (note my notes to not touch the sole....) Laminitis is a complicated beast and normal trimming protocols have to go out the window.

 

[Patty Stiller]

So how bad is the damage?

With laminitis, that is the question of the year. There is no way to know. We can not see the actual damaged laminae so the horse needs to tell us how bad it is by his clinical reactions to treatment.
Some foundered bones penetrate the soles but the horses still recover, while others look pretty good on Xray but never make it. There are SO many factors involved including his metabolic state.
This doesn't look too bad so far o the radiographs, IMO ,comparing to other cases from my experience. The X-Rays are more of a guide for the hoofcare practitioner and to monitor future changes. Founder is kid if a "treat, wait and see" prognosis.

 

[loosie]

Unless the grass is not dead yet. She did mention it could have been the grass.

Grass can be more sugar when it's stressed - overgrazed, drought effected, etc. Also he gets grass hay & while grass loses nutrients when dried, it doesn't lose sugar content. So depends what the grass, how it was grown & cut etc as to how sugary it may be. Native grass hay is *generally* lower sugar than most 'improved' pasture varieties. The only way to know accurately is to have it tested, but a good rule of thumb is to take some & soak it for a couple of hours & the browner the water that comes off it, the sweeter it is. Soaking & draining hay to leach out some of the sugars is a good move if it's not tested low NSC, for IR horses.

I've been told that I should wait to get him trimmed. Wait till he's walking fine, no heat in his hooves and decreased pulse.

Of course haven't seen the horse or anything, but IME it depends a lot on how his feet are at the moment. Eg if long toes are putting more leverage on the already inflamed & weak laminae, or high heels forcing him more on his toes, I would trim ASAP. The longer you leave unhealthy mechanical stresses, especially if the hooves are already compromised with a 'lami attack', the more chance of mechanical changes & potentially the longer the acute suffering.

How long does it usually take for a horse to get over this phase? I really think a trim (mainly shortening his toe, giving him a break over) will help.

Anything from a few hours to.... it depends so much on the specifics. Take a look at Mayfield Barehoof Care Centre Home Page & if you can manage, I HIGHLY recommend their 'The Pony That Did Not Die' book.

Does anyone know when grass is safe enough (in the winter time)? Safe enough to let him out for an hour or so. Obviously I'm not going to let him out until he is passed this.

That depends on how sensitive he is, the pasture, the weather.... some horses(&/or their environments) can be so bad they aren't able to tolerate even an hour. But I'd also start by looking at your hay & whatever else he gets. What suppliments? Magnesium is well worth looking into & I believe most horses need extra, especially if IR &/or stressed. There's also a product called 'Remission' that I can't speak personally about, but have heard some very promising comments about.

ED to add... how did I not see the further pages of replies?? Sorry for repeating what's already been discussed!

 

[loosie]

Laminitis usually refers to inflammation of the laminae in the hoof. Founder means actual rotation(high or low PA) or sinking.

Many people differentiate 'founder' from 'laminitis' in exactly that manner - laminitis if untreated, leads to mechanical founder. But many people use the terms interchangeably or think of 'founder' as the 'lay' term. Eg there's laminitis with mechanical changes or without, acute laminitis, low grade or subclinical, or chronic. Explaining to hopefully lessen confusion during further reading...:?

 

[BeccaSikes]

I'll test the soaking method tonight. Loosie what about Platinum Performance? Heard any good things about that?
My vet recommended it for hoof growth/support. And I also found it helps joints as well. It shows it has magnesium in it.

 

[deserthorsewoman]

I have you the amounts needed of magnesium, vit E, salt, already earlier. As Loosie mentioned, I, and several other people had good results with Remission( readily available at TSC). For vit E, I get a double pack of 400mg E capsules for people for 6$ at Wal-Mart, and just open the capsules and pour the oil over the feed. Since I haven't seen any feed or broad spectrum supplement that contains nearly enough of the needed, you will have to add to arrive at the recommended amount.
Flax you should be able to find either in 50 lb bags at the feed store, or get an omega supplement, like the Omega Horseshine. It's full of omega fatty acids, acts as a sand eliminator, is excellent for healthy skin, coat and hooves and anti inflammatory.A true super food.
Those are the basics for the current emergency, and once you got the hay tested, you can further supplement specifically what is needed. Pay close attention to iron content. Most hays have too much, all broad spectrum supplements and feeds have added iron, but iron plays a huge roll in triggering IR and laminitis.

 

[loosie]

Assuming the PP fits your horse's diet to balance his nutrition, it looks like a good choice. I'd add Mg to it though - if it's as palatable as it looks, you could just wet it down with some diluted Mg & feed it as a paste.

 

[BeccaSikes]

Ok so it has been almost a week since his attack. He's walking 100 % better, but some days his front hooves are warm and there is increased pulse. It's weird one morning there won't be heat and can barely feel the pulse and then later that day his feet are warm and there is an increase in the pulse. And there's been a couple days with no heat & decreased pulse that I can barely detect. (He is still confined to his stall/run and only getting grass hay. I've tried contacting the feed store to see if the hay I buy is tested. Waiting for a call back). The vet called me back and acted like this is normal. That's he's having small "attacks." I'm confused. Is this normal? Will it stop? I almost wonder if it's because his feet need to be trimmed, to release the tension on his tendons. His toes really need to be shortened. I'm still trying to find a new farrier, thought I had one lined up but they decided I was too far away. I found another one and I will be contacting him when I get off work.
I'm just feeling really confused.

 

[BeccaSikes]

I'd also like to note that he is also on Thryo-L

 

[spirit88]

Something is wrong some where if he keeps having small attacks.